I must agree with Wock that Obi kills Grievous pretty easily because he is the third greatest Jedi that ever lived. While Grievous has lightsabers he is, as we all know, no Jedi, therefore making an even fight against Obi useless for him.

If you want to get into suspension of disbelief then how about a tribe of Ewoks finally defeating the Galactic Empire? Or Jawas having lightbulbs for eyes. Or believing that some kid could actually bullseye womprats in his T-16 back home...

"There's suspension of disbelief and then there's too far."

Considering the subject, I chuckled a bit at that.

I didn't like Grievous the first time I saw the movie, and I definitely thought the cough was a little "hacky." (count it) And his name does suck. But his four sabered battling skills won me over. And, Obi finished him with relative ease because he is the supreme stallion of the Star Wars universe.

Grievous's whole life story is here.

"The same droids and techniques used to rebuild Grievous would later be used to transform Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader."

Ahhh...

Well, I have to completely disagree with you here. While the name is slightly suspect it is also kind of awesome. I for one think that General Grievous was a pretty sweet character and made for a nice secondary villain. He was completely unique to the series and I enjoy that there is a bit of mystery to him (at least in the film). There is never an explanation of whether he is a robot or human or both, although there are small glimpses of his human heart and eyes. I thought the cough was a nice little evil touch, although apparently it was added after the fact to clue the audience to the fact that he is part human. Here is what 2 internet nerds had to say about the space breathing:

"The explanation given is that his little gut sac thing (which Obi-Wan later blows up) is pressurized. Maybe he's got his own little air supply in there. I guess this is what happens when you tack on a crappy breathing noise to a character just to show he's not a robot when all you need to do is have him say "I'm not a robot, by the way."
Cody S.
07-13-2005, 02:01 AM
Well...if his chest plate is pressurized, then he could've just held his breath. Since his lungs and heart were really the only organic parts of him (that I know of ), if they were contained in a pressurized area...then he wouldn't have to worry about nitrogen escaping his bloodstream and essentially blowing him up, as would happen to us humans in space.
Kinda like Superman. He can survive in space, but he can't breath in space, thus...when he has to, he just holds his breath."

My take is hey, he is part robot, maybe he is simply equipped with an emergency air supply. It doesn't really bug me too much. Also I found the 4-armed jedi battle to be freaking insanely awesome. What a badass Obi-Wan is to defeat a 4-armed lightsaber attack. My theory is that Grievous was the Emperor's first experiment with keeping a man alive, leading him to the technology that would become Darth Vader.

While I know that all of 3 is not perfect I find Grievous to be one of the highlights and a nice addition to the Star Wars pantheon. You fell asleep? Was it late? Even if you don't like the movie it has enough stuff blowing up to keep one entertained, methinks.

*Apparently there is more Grievous info in those Clone Wars animated DVD things that I have always been too embarrassed to rent*

Hell he didn't even write the screenplay for 5 or 6 (6 was a co-write). Let's take Paulie Mac back out of this discussion for the sake of clarity (and so I don't have to argue two points at once).

Basically what I think happened, was that he wrote THX 1138 - kinda weird, you know, whatever. Did American Grafitti, had some success with that one and was able to get Star Wars made. Star Wars was an amazing blockbuster and, like a child star or something, that success went to his head. He still had to have help with 5 and 6 (said the studio. I remember hearing this recently on one of the commentary tracks) cos he wasn't THE George Lucas yet so that's why he avoided making an ass of himself back then. So he didn't do the script for 5, just the story, so that one turned out very well. He stepped back in and co-wrote the script for 6 and that's when you can start to see the chinks in the armor.

He wrote 1 all by himself and caught **** for how bad it was compared to how sweet it could have been. Then he brought in (because by this time he had the power to decide whether or not he wanted to do things alone or with help) Jonathon Hales to co-write 2 w/him. This fellow really only has Young Indiana Jones movies and "The Scorpion King to his credit, so he was clearly the wrong person to bring in, he only helped to douche up 2, which, granted, was a very tricky script to write, with all the love scenes.

GL writes 3 all by himself, and it's still a pretty douchey script. I think the fact that it's the culmination of 5 movies before it means that it was bound to be pretty explosive. Hell Michael Bey could have directed 3 and it might even have been sweeter. Thing is, GL is still writing the scripts and that's where they're super douchey. He could have directed or produced movies that were written differently and no one would have complained.

If I might now bring back PM into this to illustrate my argument (and you'll have to accept my premise that PM is kinda douchey these days) - I would liken it to producing or engineering an album that you haven't written the music for. When PM writes music, it tends to be a little douchey sometimes, just cos he's old and has been in the limelight all these years and isn't a dirty little scouser form Liverpool anymore. If he were to engineer or produce an album by say, Thom Yorke, you'd still be able to hear some douche in it but due to the fact that TY wrote the music for it, it's not going to sound like some kid's album. Y'know what I mean?

EA, I admire your bravery with calling out old Macca. It was a gutsy move and I tip my hat to you sir. While the comparison of Lucas to McCartney is not completely ill-fitting, it is not completely accurate either. I say this because, while I love McCartney, his slew of godawful adult rock that he unleashed on the world from about 87 to 95 is nothing compared to the new Star Wars films. I think that yes, both men at one point in their careers achieved heights of success that noone in their fields can ever hope to achieve. No band will ever be better or have more success than The Beatles. Ever. It is impossible. Same with film, no film will ever again have the cultural impact of Star Wars. It completely changed film as well as the movie industry. However, what they did after their success is where their paths start to diverge from one another. Lucas all but hung up his director hat for a better part of 20 years. While he continued to write and produce and all that it seems that he was a tad scared about getting back in that director's chair again. While I know that he uses the excuse of ILM and all that as his reason for not directing I have never fully believed it. I think he was scared of sucking. Now that he is old he just doesn't care anymore. Macca, while yes , making some godawful music in recent years, at least never quit what he does best. It wasn't like he had some hits with The Beatles and then was like, "oh, guess I'll let someone else write all the songs now." People clown him for his spotty solo career but I think its great that he just kind of doesn't care and never really quit. Besides, his last album before this one, Chaos and Creation or something like that, was actually pretty sweet. If some dirty indie band would have made it people would have thought it was genius. I'm not really sure what my point is here but I think I made one.

Moving on, I do agree that Eps I & II are definitely flawed films that have things that I love and things I hate. For every Darth Maul there is a Jar Jar. For every Jawa massacre there is Jake Lloyd. I for one, wish George would have started with Ani already being in training or somewhere where he was a bit older. There was no way that anyone could pull off Episode I with the main character being a kid and have it turn out well. It just seems, goofy. My point is that Episode III blows these two films out of the water. I mean, George actually pulls off the last 45 minutes of the movie better than I ever could have dreamed (save for the NOOOOOO). I mean, I actually get sad when the Jedi's are killed, I am disappointed when Yoda gives up, on the edge of my seat during the Ani/Obi battle even though I now what the outcome is going to be. There is no 3P0 attempting to provide comic relief. There is no Jake Lloyd yelling "yippee!" There are no Ewoks. I don't know how George did it, but he did it.

As for Episode II, let me say this. I think that we all agree that it is the worst of the six. The love scenes didn't really have to be that bad, the effects didn't have to be so bad, and galdarnit, the amount of godawful one-liners didn't have to be so bad ("this is such a drag" anyone?). However, if you ask my wife which her favorite Star Wars film is, she would probably tell you this one. I have no idea why but she would. And if Episode II serves as a catalyst to interest my wife in Star Wars then god bless you George Lucas. God bless you.

I figured as much...though I would like to point out it's a GL/PM comparison and not Star Wars/PM.

-- Edited by EA Sports at 21:04, 2007-07-10

for the CG sets diss!

I can get behind the standpoint of these 6 movies as one long film, but I think that's where the heart of our "disagreement" lies. When thinking about this saga, it really is one big long movie, but I still have to critique each individual movie as a standalone to a certain extent. It sounds to me like you haven't taken that step back and looked at 3 outside of the framework of all 6 movies. To wit: you say, "not the scene where Ani becomes Darth. The moment that every boy/girl from our generation has been imagining for years..." Don't get me wrong, we all have been waiting for that moment for years to be sure, but that tells me that you are viewing it from an overly emotional standpoint (i.e. a moment you have been waiting for for years). Though I can't fault you too much for that... the thing that gets my goat is that I've been waiting for that moment for years and it sucked! And that it turn kind of extends to the rest of the movies... I've been waiting for them for years, and there were many many dissappointing things about them. So in that respect I'm viewing them from an emotional standpoint as well.

I just grabbed the Episode 1 VHS to toss in and forgot about how bad an actor Jake Lloyd was too.

You know, forgive the analogy but I think I would liken GL to Paul McCartney at this point (I fear I may be treading on thin ice). Made fantastic art back in the day but have gotten kind of douchey. Still make some good stuff but just have a pretty big douche factor (PM's newest album called "Memory Almost Full").

Ahh, I also own that VHS documentary (as well as a sweet bootleg of the holiday special but that is a whole other story) and I remember that quote. I also agree with it.

Let me clear something up:

I completely agree with both of you that the models are infinitely better than the CG when it comes to the ships and sets. Honestly, my major beef with II is that the effects are so sub-par (somehow worse than I which makes no sense) and used at places where they are not needed. I am sorry, you are George freaking Lucas, build some sets, would you? The effects on Coruscant in particular are just ridiculous. And yeah, the silly shiny triangle ships are nothing compared to the looks of the old star fighters from IV-VI. I always prefer the real deal when they can do it and Episode II just reeks of CG over-usage. EA, when I saw II in the theater I could not get over Lucas' own hypocrisy regarding effects vs. story from both things he has said in the aforementioned VHS documentary as well as recently as the DVD commentary for Episode I. However, I think that the effects, while still overused, are much more well done in Episode III and rarely take you out of the story.

Also:

Yes, the Vader as Frankenstein homage was horribly done and was just the worst possible place that I could think of for a nod at another film. Sure Lucas admits that he has liberally borrowed from old serials, The Seven Samuarai and The Hidden Fortress, but George, not the scene where Ani becomes Darth. The moment that every boy/girl from our generation has been imagining for years. My film revision plays out much like yours: fists clench, things in the background explode and Darth realizes his error. Call me crazy but I would leave out the cringe-worthy NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. I mean, wow.

As for the acting, well, you've got me there. Thank god for Ewan McGregor. Now, I think that Hayden in II is supposed to be acting like a young idiot so if you take it that way then he does a terrific job :)

As for Episode IV, has anyone noticed that if watching all six in a row that this, of all the films, actually comes off as the slowest and, dare I say, redundant. This is no fault of Lucas and not a comment on the film as it stands on it own, but since the 1st three explain to us the Force, the Star Wars universe, Darth, Luke's heritage/future, the whole 1st hour plays like a very different film. It is too bad but I hope that George never gets the terrible idea to go back and fix them all again.

I stand by my statement, though. As far as story, action, characters and contribution to the Star Wars catalog I think that III slightly edges V. Although I am the kind of guy that likes to think of it as one huge movie.

Detach cable! Cable detached! I love you too, EA.

I have some thinking to do, but I'll weigh in when the time is right. You both make good points.

However, a few thoughts: I was watching IV the other night on cable, and I really agree with what you're saying about the uses of models as opposed to the CG stuff. But, I think biff may be speaking more about the story than the special effects.

Speaking of story, III is so much better than I & II in this department that it can't help but look tremendous in comparison. So, it's clearly the best of the first 3. Is it better than Empire, or even A New Hope? That's a tough call. Was it worth waiting for, after the semi-disappointing I and cringe-worthy II? Absolutely.

EA Sports wrote:

---

Wock - sit back and relax and watch two Star Wars nerds do their thing...

 

I can hold my own, thank you very much.

Nice use of "unbidden," btw.

You make a good argument. I need to see it again. I'm assuming this Christmas they'll put out a I-VI box set and then I can really get down, watch all of 'em in a row and gain some new perspective.

I saw that they recently put out double disc sets of IV-VI that include the original and revamped versions. About time.