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Post Info TOPIC: I Am Man Enough To Admit That Episode III Is The Best Star Wars Film


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RE: I Am Man Enough To Admit That Episode III Is The Best Star Wars Film


But the point is that there is enough believable stuff elsewhere in the first 3 movies as opposed to the second three movies. The second three just get ridiculous.

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I must agree with Wock that Obi kills Grievous pretty easily because he is the third greatest Jedi that ever lived. While Grievous has lightsabers he is, as we all know, no Jedi, therefore making an even fight against Obi useless for him.

If you want to get into suspension of disbelief then how about a tribe of Ewoks finally defeating the Galactic Empire? Or Jawas having lightbulbs for eyes. Or believing that some kid could actually bullseye womprats in his T-16 back home...


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Well, yes, suspension of disbelief is necessary for fantasy/science fiction and even for simple fiction. But good stuff from either of those genres will include enough reality to make it easier to believe the far-fetched stuff, or will include enough realistic elements in the fantasy to make it, if not plausible, at least imaginable. There are elements of suspension of disbelief involved in all fictions, and it's the good stuff that keeps you from saying, "psssshh, yeah right."

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"There's suspension of disbelief and then there's too far."

Considering the subject, I chuckled a bit at that.

I didn't like Grievous the first time I saw the movie, and I definitely thought the cough was a little "hacky." (count it) And his name does suck. But his four sabered battling skills won me over. And, Obi finished him with relative ease because he is the supreme stallion of the Star Wars universe.

Grievous's whole life story is here.

"
The same droids and techniques used to rebuild Grievous would later be used to transform Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader."

Ahhh...


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It was late, I was in bed.

There's suspension of disbelief and then there's too far.

I probably could have felt alright about Grievous if he didn't have such a sh!t name (Lucas appears to have lost the knack, Darth Tyrannus? General Grievous?) and if it didn't seem like Lucas made him up without any forethought at all and then invented the cough etc. to cover his sh!tazz tracks. If Obi could have beaten Grievous in a more convincing fashion, i.e., not so quickly and simply, considering the dude had four arms, then that would have been impressive. But it was quick, and Obi never seemed to be in any real danger.

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Well, I have to completely disagree with you here. While the name is slightly suspect it is also kind of awesome. I for one think that General Grievous was a pretty sweet character and made for a nice secondary villain. He was completely unique to the series and I enjoy that there is a bit of mystery to him (at least in the film). There is never an explanation of whether he is a robot or human or both, although there are small glimpses of his human heart and eyes. I thought the cough was a nice little evil touch, although apparently it was added after the fact to clue the audience to the fact that he is part human. Here is what 2 internet nerds had to say about the space breathing:

"The explanation given is that his little gut sac thing (which Obi-Wan later blows up) is pressurized. Maybe he's got his own little air supply in there. I guess this is what happens when you tack on a crappy breathing noise to a character just to show he's not a robot when all you need to do is have him say "I'm not a robot, by the way."
Cody S.
07-13-2005, 02:01 AM
Well...if his chest plate is pressurized, then he could've just held his breath. Since his lungs and heart were really the only organic parts of him (that I know of ), if they were contained in a pressurized area...then he wouldn't have to worry about nitrogen escaping his bloodstream and essentially blowing him up, as would happen to us humans in space.
Kinda like Superman. He can survive in space, but he can't breath in space, thus...when he has to, he just holds his breath."

My take is hey, he is part robot, maybe he is simply equipped with an emergency air supply. It doesn't really bug me too much. Also I found the 4-armed jedi battle to be freaking insanely awesome. What a badass Obi-Wan is to defeat a 4-armed lightsaber attack. My theory is that Grievous was the Emperor's first experiment with keeping a man alive, leading him to the technology that would become Darth Vader.

While I know that all of 3 is not perfect I find Grievous to be one of the highlights and a nice addition to the Star Wars pantheon. You fell asleep? Was it late? Even if you don't like the movie it has enough stuff blowing up to keep one entertained, methinks.

*Apparently there is more Grievous info in those Clone Wars animated DVD things that I have always been too embarrassed to rent*

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Gotta dig this thread back up because I went and bought 3 last night and watched it for the first time in quite a while, course I fell asleep before it was over.

I gotta, gotta, bring up General Grievous as I forgot about him.

A: Sh!t name!

B: Why does a robot that doesn't need to breathe (as proved at the start of the film when he escapes from Anakin and Obi-Wan by breaking the window of the ship and flying out into a vacuum) have a cough? A cough?

I repeat, a cough?

So I googled "General Grievous cough" and was taken to the star wars website that says:

"A twisted melding of flesh and metal, General Grievous' body is a deadly weapon forged by the cutting edge developers of the Confederacy. Grievous' living matter was encased within his precision-engineered artificial body; inside the hardened carapace beat the heart of a remorseless killer. A pressurized gut-sack held his vital organs, while his skull-like mask contained his living eyes and brain. Making the horrific amalgam more unpleasant was a persistent wet, hacking cough coming from his ravaged lungs."

So apparently he was Vader-esque, in that he still had some body parts inside his robot shell. But "ravaged lungs" and a "peristent wet, hacking cough?" From a guy that, as evidenced right at the start of the film, doesn't need to breathe?

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Hell he didn't even write the screenplay for 5 or 6 (6 was a co-write). Let's take Paulie Mac back out of this discussion for the sake of clarity (and so I don't have to argue two points at once).

Basically what I think happened, was that he wrote THX 1138 - kinda weird, you know, whatever. Did American Grafitti, had some success with that one and was able to get Star Wars made. Star Wars was an amazing blockbuster and, like a child star or something, that success went to his head. He still had to have help with 5 and 6 (said the studio. I remember hearing this recently on one of the commentary tracks) cos he wasn't THE George Lucas yet so that's why he avoided making an ass of himself back then. So he didn't do the script for 5, just the story, so that one turned out very well. He stepped back in and co-wrote the script for 6 and that's when you can start to see the chinks in the armor.

He wrote 1 all by himself and caught **** for how bad it was compared to how sweet it could have been. Then he brought in (because by this time he had the power to decide whether or not he wanted to do things alone or with help) Jonathon Hales to co-write 2 w/him. This fellow really only has Young Indiana Jones movies and "The Scorpion King to his credit, so he was clearly the wrong person to bring in, he only helped to douche up 2, which, granted, was a very tricky script to write, with all the love scenes.

GL writes 3 all by himself, and it's still a pretty douchey script. I think the fact that it's the culmination of 5 movies before it means that it was bound to be pretty explosive. Hell Michael Bey could have directed 3 and it might even have been sweeter. Thing is, GL is still writing the scripts and that's where they're super douchey. He could have directed or produced movies that were written differently and no one would have complained.

If I might now bring back PM into this to illustrate my argument (and you'll have to accept my premise that PM is kinda douchey these days) - I would liken it to producing or engineering an album that you haven't written the music for. When PM writes music, it tends to be a little douchey sometimes, just cos he's old and has been in the limelight all these years and isn't a dirty little scouser form Liverpool anymore. If he were to engineer or produce an album by say, Thom Yorke, you'd still be able to hear some douche in it but due to the fact that TY wrote the music for it, it's not going to sound like some kid's album. Y'know what I mean?

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I didn't say the analogy fit like a pair of tighty whiteys. And I wasn't trying to call out "Macca," I listened to "Chaos and Creation" a lot when I was down in LA last year. I liked that album, of course I sang the title track as "It's a fine line between gay-os and creation..." I'm just saying that in their old age, they've both gotten a bit douchey and out of touch. And I would disagree a bit with your description of their separate paths. GL = movies. PM = music. Just 'cause GL didn't direct, didn't mean he wasn't in movies. Hell, he didn't even direct 5 or 6. Fact is he still made 'em and they were still good (especially 5).

Regardless, I think we can all agree that 1 and 2 are flawed, but I would have to argue that 3 is that way as well.

I'm going to leave it here for now so I can hang out with my girlfriend. But I'm anxious to continue this discussion.

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EA, I admire your bravery with calling out old Macca. It was a gutsy move and I tip my hat to you sir. While the comparison of Lucas to McCartney is not completely ill-fitting, it is not completely accurate either. I say this because, while I love McCartney, his slew of godawful adult rock that he unleashed on the world from about 87 to 95 is nothing compared to the new Star Wars films. I think that yes, both men at one point in their careers achieved heights of success that noone in their fields can ever hope to achieve. No band will ever be better or have more success than The Beatles. Ever. It is impossible. Same with film, no film will ever again have the cultural impact of Star Wars. It completely changed film as well as the movie industry. However, what they did after their success is where their paths start to diverge from one another. Lucas all but hung up his director hat for a better part of 20 years. While he continued to write and produce and all that it seems that he was a tad scared about getting back in that director's chair again. While I know that he uses the excuse of ILM and all that as his reason for not directing I have never fully believed it. I think he was scared of sucking. Now that he is old he just doesn't care anymore. Macca, while yes , making some godawful music in recent years, at least never quit what he does best. It wasn't like he had some hits with The Beatles and then was like, "oh, guess I'll let someone else write all the songs now." People clown him for his spotty solo career but I think its great that he just kind of doesn't care and never really quit. Besides, his last album before this one, Chaos and Creation or something like that, was actually pretty sweet. If some dirty indie band would have made it people would have thought it was genius. I'm not really sure what my point is here but I think I made one.

Moving on, I do agree that Eps I & II are definitely flawed films that have things that I love and things I hate. For every Darth Maul there is a Jar Jar. For every Jawa massacre there is Jake Lloyd. I for one, wish George would have started with Ani already being in training or somewhere where he was a bit older. There was no way that anyone could pull off Episode I with the main character being a kid and have it turn out well. It just seems, goofy. My point is that Episode III blows these two films out of the water. I mean, George actually pulls off the last 45 minutes of the movie better than I ever could have dreamed (save for the NOOOOOO). I mean, I actually get sad when the Jedi's are killed, I am disappointed when Yoda gives up, on the edge of my seat during the Ani/Obi battle even though I now what the outcome is going to be. There is no 3P0 attempting to provide comic relief. There is no Jake Lloyd yelling "yippee!" There are no Ewoks. I don't know how George did it, but he did it.

As for Episode II, let me say this. I think that we all agree that it is the worst of the six. The love scenes didn't really have to be that bad, the effects didn't have to be so bad, and galdarnit, the amount of godawful one-liners didn't have to be so bad ("this is such a drag" anyone?). However, if you ask my wife which her favorite Star Wars film is, she would probably tell you this one. I have no idea why but she would. And if Episode II serves as a catalyst to interest my wife in Star Wars then god bless you George Lucas. God bless you.

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Oh, right. Either way, any insults aimed at McCartney will not be taken lightly.

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I figured as much...though I would like to point out it's a GL/PM comparison and not Star Wars/PM.

-- Edited by EA Sports at 21:04, 2007-07-10

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Wow, embroiling biff in a Star Wars/McCartney comparison. This is going to get interesting...

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donut.gif for the CG sets diss!

I can get behind the standpoint of these 6 movies as one long film, but I think that's where the heart of our "disagreement" lies. When thinking about this saga, it really is one big long movie, but I still have to critique each individual movie as a standalone to a certain extent. It sounds to me like you haven't taken that step back and looked at 3 outside of the framework of all 6 movies. To wit: you say, "not the scene where Ani becomes Darth. The moment that every boy/girl from our generation has been imagining for years..." Don't get me wrong, we all have been waiting for that moment for years to be sure, but that tells me that you are viewing it from an overly emotional standpoint (i.e. a moment you have been waiting for for years). Though I can't fault you too much for that... the thing that gets my goat is that I've been waiting for that moment for years and it sucked! And that it turn kind of extends to the rest of the movies... I've been waiting for them for years, and there were many many dissappointing things about them. So in that respect I'm viewing them from an emotional standpoint as well.

I just grabbed the Episode 1 VHS to toss in and forgot about how bad an actor Jake Lloyd was too.

You know, forgive the analogy but I think I would liken GL to Paul McCartney at this point (I fear I may be treading on thin ice). Made fantastic art back in the day but have gotten kind of douchey. Still make some good stuff but just have a pretty big douche factor (PM's newest album called "Memory Almost Full").

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As always, you make some damn fine points.

I think we can all agree that the infamous "NOOOOOOO" was the low point of that otherwise great film. I remember seeing it for the first time, being really caught up in the action, and then being taken aback by that moment. Strikingly bizarre and laughable in it's heavy handed approach.

You couldn't have said it better: Thank God for Ewan McGregor. He is a fantastic Obi-Wan, and makes II worth watching (while you skip through the courtship crap), even if it is the weak link. He carries the first two films.

My issue, as far as favorites go, is that I've always had a boner for Bespin and Cloud City, so I'll always be partial to Empire. I thought the updates that Lucas did to those scenes were pretty bad ass, too.

But like I said, I haven't seen III nearly as many times as V, so I'm probably skewed a bit there as well.

And it's on cable right now and I'm sitting here doing this.

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Ahh, I also own that VHS documentary (as well as a sweet bootleg of the holiday special but that is a whole other story) and I remember that quote. I also agree with it.

Let me clear something up:

I completely agree with both of you that the models are infinitely better than the CG when it comes to the ships and sets. Honestly, my major beef with II is that the effects are so sub-par (somehow worse than I which makes no sense) and used at places where they are not needed. I am sorry, you are George freaking Lucas, build some sets, would you? The effects on Coruscant in particular are just ridiculous. And yeah, the silly shiny triangle ships are nothing compared to the looks of the old star fighters from IV-VI. I always prefer the real deal when they can do it and Episode II just reeks of CG over-usage. EA, when I saw II in the theater I could not get over Lucas' own hypocrisy regarding effects vs. story from both things he has said in the aforementioned VHS documentary as well as recently as the DVD commentary for Episode I. However, I think that the effects, while still overused, are much more well done in Episode III and rarely take you out of the story.

Also:

Yes, the Vader as Frankenstein homage was horribly done and was just the worst possible place that I could think of for a nod at another film. Sure Lucas admits that he has liberally borrowed from old serials, The Seven Samuarai and The Hidden Fortress, but George, not the scene where Ani becomes Darth. The moment that every boy/girl from our generation has been imagining for years. My film revision plays out much like yours: fists clench, things in the background explode and Darth realizes his error. Call me crazy but I would leave out the cringe-worthy NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. I mean, wow.

As for the acting, well, you've got me there. Thank god for Ewan McGregor. Now, I think that Hayden in II is supposed to be acting like a young idiot so if you take it that way then he does a terrific job :)

As for Episode IV, has anyone noticed that if watching all six in a row that this, of all the films, actually comes off as the slowest and, dare I say, redundant. This is no fault of Lucas and not a comment on the film as it stands on it own, but since the 1st three explain to us the Force, the Star Wars universe, Darth, Luke's heritage/future, the whole 1st hour plays like a very different film. It is too bad but I hope that George never gets the terrible idea to go back and fix them all again.

I stand by my statement, though. As far as story, action, characters and contribution to the Star Wars catalog I think that III slightly edges V. Although I am the kind of guy that likes to think of it as one huge movie.

Detach cable! Cable detached! I love you too, EA.

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Well if we want to focus specifically on story for a little bit, I'd heartily agree that 3 is far superior to 1 or 2 and probably reaps significant benefits due to the fact that 1 and 2 suck pretty hard. Possibly even better than 6, but certainly behind 4 and 5.

I, too, probably ought to watch 3 again as I'm working off a memory storage system that, admittedly, can be faulty on occasion.

One final thought for this post: On the "Saga Behind The Saga" making of Star Wars VHS tape that I own, GL makes some statement about "what good are special effects without a story" - to drive my argument home about the CG, I would turn that (loose) quote around and ask what good is a story without special effects that don't obfuscate or detract from it?

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I have some thinking to do, but I'll weigh in when the time is right. You both make good points.

However, a few thoughts: I was watching IV the other night on cable, and I really agree with what you're saying about the uses of models as opposed to the CG stuff. But, I think biff may be speaking more about the story than the special effects.

Speaking of story, III is so much better than I & II in this department that it can't help but look tremendous in comparison. So, it's clearly the best of the first 3. Is it better than Empire, or even A New Hope? That's a tough call. Was it worth waiting for, after the semi-disappointing I and cringe-worthy II? Absolutely.



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I was unaware you were counted among the passionate. Deepest apologies.

Care to weigh in? Or still waiting to have another watch of III?

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EA Sports wrote:

Wock - sit back and relax and watch two Star Wars nerds do their thing...


 

I can hold my own, thank you very much.


Nice use of "unbidden," btw.



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Wock - sit back and relax and watch two Star Wars nerds do their thing...

Wow biff. That took some serious balls to put that out there unbidden.

Now I'm going to disagree with you. Just because we gain all this insight into what set up episodes 4-6, doesn't mean that on that merit alone episodes 1-3 are good. You seem to be arguing their merit based on what they bring to 4-6 rather than on their own. To my mind that's faulty thinking. They aren't terrible movies (and here I'll begin to speak to III specifically) but there are so many things about it that make me cringe. Natalie Portman's acting takes a serious dump once III rolls around. Anytime she and Hayden Christensen are onscreen together (in any of the first three) I want to tear my balls off. HC couldn't act his way out of a wet paper sack! To wit: he stands up out of the cradle that he's been in getting the Darth Vader gear so that he may continue to live and the Emporer tells him that Padme has died and the best HC and George Lucas can come up with is for him to yell, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" ??? Give me a freaking break. Obviously, you can't watch his face contort with rage (being that it's hidden) but you could stick some damn props around the set and watch them buckle and rend as DV's fists ball up and begin to tremble and quake.

And I much prefer the models from 4-6 to all the CG stuff. The model spaceships look more real because they are in fact real things, just to scale. The tactile nature of the scale models really comes through on screen. I don't like the CG ships because they don't have that tactile quality. You couldn't go down to Skywalker Ranch and hold anything from 1-3 in your hands because they don't exist and that comes through on the big screen as well. Sure, the scale models had their rough patches, as far as being difficult and not being super exact all the time, but if you think about what they could do with models now that technology has progressed as far as it has, it makes me want to go down to Skywalker Ranch, sneak in, slip GL a roofie and give him the double eye blinky while wearing a Spock costume.

I guess what really cheeses me about 1-3 is the fact that they could have been fcuking awesome. As it is, there were moments where my balls tried to sneak back up into my body.

I don't hate you, Biff, indeed I love you (don't tell Angie). We're arguing opinion here. You told me why you think what you think and I told you the same. When I disagree with someone it doesn't bother me too much because at least they're thinking about it, you know?

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You make a good argument. I need to see it again. I'm assuming this Christmas they'll put out a I-VI box set and then I can really get down, watch all of 'em in a row and gain some new perspective.

I saw that they recently put out double disc sets of IV-VI that include the original and revamped versions. About time.

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I know that popular opinion is to accept the new "Star Wars" films but to hold the original three with a sense of piety only reserved for Jesus Christ himself. I am sorry. I am a proud "Star Wars" nerd. I would name my child Han Solo Bush if my wife would let me. I have been trying to work a TK-421 reference to a rap forever now. Even though I know he lives, I always hope that Wedge will live to see another day. I am still wondering where Biggs is. Blasted Biggs, where are you?!

Okay, all that being said, I am completely ready to admit that Episode III is better than the old school favorite Episode V. The opening of III is intense, Anakin finally turns bad, the Jedis are destroyed, Ani kills children, Yoda finally loses, Darth is born, and we learn how Luke and Leia end up where they end up.

Please don't hate me. Don't take away my nerd cred. It's all I've got anymore.

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